Fri 22 Jul 2005
There was a story on the news last night about a Roseville church obtaining a fragment of bone supposedly belonging to Saint Anna (aka St. Anne or St. Hannah), the grandmother of Jesus. It’s being kept at a Greek Orthodox Church there and is expected to draw people from around the country. From Catholic teaching, it is believed that St. Anna birthed Mary via immaculate conception, which is the doctrine that the Virgin Mary was conceived free from all stain of original sin. Since I am not Catholic, I do not share that belief and am often concerned that so many people will see an image in a sandwich or see a bone fragment and flock to worship before it. One man that was interviewed said seeing this bone strengthens his faith because it is something tangible. What a sad state Christians are in.
A definition of faith is “Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.” Belief in God does not rest on a tangible thing. We believe God is who He says He is. As Christians, we believe that He sent Jesus to die for us, to take away our sin and to give us eternal life. Some people saw Jesus and left us an account of His life in the Bible. Believing that the Bible is all truth and is the word of God is all that we have. We don’t have bones or nails or fragments of the cross. We don’t even have a skeleton of Jesus because He was raised from the dead. Can you imagine if we did have something that belonged to Jesus? People would be bowing down before it like the people in Moses’ time worshiped before the golden calf. I’m glad we don’t have anything like that because I believe it takes our focus off of what is true and turns us to objects, which have no life in them and cannot provide anything for us besides a feeling of awe or something to that extent.
There is a tendency in all of us to worship something. Some people worship their vehicle while others worship a person they love. Whatever it is, God put the need to worship within us. Of course, it can only be quenched by the knowledge of, belief in, and faith in Jesus as our Savior. Many have not come to that knowledge, which is why Christians need to be examples of Christ in the workplace, at the grocery store, on the freeway, at home, and everywhere else we go. While I cannot say that I am perfect and do realize that I have a tendency to worship material items, I do think it is important to acknowledge that I put faith in stuff that only gives me temporary happiness. Acknowledging is the first step to changing those habits and turning my focus to Jesus, the only person/thing I am to worship and have faith in.
In the meantime, I think it is important to voice my opinion about people who call themselves Christians while worshiping religious relics. We are told that false teachers will come and try to sway us from our faith. They will look good, they will say good things, but they will also turn us from the Truth. The worship of images, of Mary, of pieces of bone, etc. is false. I wonder if those who worship those things now will have a higher tendency to turn from the Truth when the antichrist comes. If you’re more willing to worship a bone, what do you think you’ll do when a breathing person comes claiming to be the Son of God? I fear for those people. We are only to worship God. That’s it! No additions, no subtractions. Mary was a mere woman chosen by God. God did the work to bring Jesus into this world, not Mary. Funky images will show up on grilled cheese sandwiches, pieces of cloth or on cement underpasses created by calcium deposits in water. Let them be seen as something odd and that’s it. Do not light candles before them. They cannot hear, see or walk before you. They cannot and will not give you anything except a false sense of faith. Satan clearly has control over many people and things in this world. Do not let him have a foothold on your faith.
Faith in God is something we have without seeing anything. I pray to God for strength to rely on Him alone rather than myself, another person or an object. May we all look inside ourselves and see what we are worshiping. If it’s not God, I pray we would turn from it and realize what the Truth really is.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:36 pm
Stephanie,
I sympathize with your post. Veneration of icons and relics is something vastly corrupted by modern day Catholicism and terribly misunderstood by today’s Protestants.
“The worship of images, of Mary, of pieces of bone, etc. is false.”
Very true. Thankfully, the Orthodox only worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and because of this we give God the glory when we see how He works His grace and mercy through his material creation.
I didn’t believe it until I studied it myself, but the proper (that is the key!) veneration of relics is an organic part of historic Christianity and directly connected to an apostolic experience and understanding of the Incarnation of Christ.
Giving God glory when we see his power displayed in his creation is not mutually exclusive with faith, for it is the natural and proper manifestation of faith in our life.
“I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation,” said St. John of Damascus, in the 8th century.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/relics_place.aspx
Lastly, check out Acts 19:11-12 and Acts 5:15-16—According to your reasoning, St. Paul and St. Peter were doing something evil! Where they (as you claim) “taking the focus off of what is true”? Why didn’t the Apostles just tell the people to “have faith”? Or is there another way of understanding relics (one that isn’t tainted by post-Enlightenment Protestantism) that can explain these things?
I think there is! I encourage you to study the issue in more depth, especially the Eastern Orthodox teaching.
July 24th, 2005 at 9:28 pm
Karl, thanks for your comment. Through my study of Acts, those verses refer to Paul being used by God to heal the sick and afflicted. Acts 19:11 states that it was God who was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul. Yes, verse 12 does state that aprons and other clothes that had touched Paul’s body were also being used to heal the sick, which may be close to a relic. Yet, I put that in a different category. At this time, Paul was still alive and God was working through him. I would consider traveling pieces of bone (believed, but not confirmed to be of a person) are a different story. Once Paul’s life ended, his miracles were over. I do not hold the belief that a person can perform a miracle post-mortem. Only Jesus Christ can perform miracles and as Christians, we believe He is still alive and active because He was raised from the dead.
Therefore, I would consider God using Paul to heal the sick was true and I’m sure Paul was healing them in the name of God considering that he was spreading the gospel. Any other relic, such as a dead body of a mere person (even those considered by some to be saints), a fragment of bone, or any other thing is taking people’s focus off of what is true. Those things cannot proclaim God’s glory, whereas Paul could. People can infer that dead relics represent a temple of God, but there is no indication that the belief is true. No fruit can be seen in the lives of dead saints because they are dead. We are here for but a moment and can be used for the glory of God in many ways. Even after we’re gone, the stories of our lives can also be a testimony, but I believe our journey is over once the Lord takes us home. That’s when I’ll be partying with Jesus in Heaven and my entire focus will be on Him and nothing else.
July 25th, 2005 at 8:35 am
You wrote: “Any other relic, such as a dead body of a mere person (even those considered by some to be saints), a fragment of bone, or any other thing is taking people’s focus off of what is true.”
How would you explain 2 Kings 13:20-21:
“Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year. So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.”
Did this take people’s focus off of what is true? Does it take the focus away from God or does it manifest his glory?
Elisha’s body, like ours, is a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19) and because of this indwelling, God was able to bless people through that body, even after the soul had been separated from the body.
God is the God of the living, not the dead (Matt. 22:32). And those who die in Christ are alive in Him.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:08 pm
I think we can go round and round on this subject and would have to agree to disagree. Concerning Elisha, that is in the Old Testament when those types of miracles were known to happen. There’s a sermon I read that referred to miracles being performed in 3 separate time periods, but they totalled about 100 years. The sermon is located at http://www.faithtacoma.org/sermons/Matthew/Matt_4.23-25.Nov16.03.htm. It also refers to 2 Timothy 4:20 as being the time when miracles ended because Paul left his friend sick and did not heal him.
It all comes down to what we believe and from our comments, those views are different. I do not believe that saints (servants of the Lord that have died) or any other earthly material object has the Holy Spirit. Once we die, our souls are in Heaven and the Holy Spirit is with believers who are alive and have a living, breathing body.
Jesus said in John 4:48 “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.” and in John 5:26-26, Jesus spoke to the people who were asking for signs. The people wanted physical signs, but all they really needed to see was Jesus for who He is. He is the bread of life. All miracles performed before Jesus came were from God. Yet, we should not be looking for signs today. We have the Word and we have the Holy Spirit within us. Even Satan, in Matthew 4, tried to tempt Jesus and have Him perform signs, but Jesus refused. Jesus refers to Deut. 6:16 in verse 7 saying “you shall not put the Lord your God to the test” What’s the purpose of asking for signs and miracles? To make ourselves feel good? I think if that’s our purpose, we will be disappointed. God is not here to be commanded by us. We are to be led by Him.
Matthew 24:24 states “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” That says to me that those who are looking for signs will be deceived. We need only to look to Jesus as our example. My faith is not strengthened by signs in this world. My faith is strengthend by how God works in my own personal life and how I see Him changing me and guiding me down certain paths, which will bring me closer to Him. I am skeptical of what people believe to be signs and wonders because false prophets are here. They say the right thing and look like they can make the lives of people better. Yet, only God can do that. Let us not put our trust in mere men, but in God alone and may we also turn to the Bible as our plumb line, in which we compare everything that we read or hear.
Yes, once we die, we are alive in Christ…in Heaven. Not on this Earth and not in our dead bodies.
July 25th, 2005 at 1:11 pm
Hi,
I stumbled upon your blog after looking up info about the relic online. I was at the service last night and this morning. I, nor anyone else there, worshipped the relic.
Thanks for voicing your opinion about people who call themselves Christians while worshiping religious relics. I’ll voice my opinion whenever I finally meet any of those people, either.
I am glad that God hasn’t changed and continues to show signs to us of His presence, just as He always has. My faith was in no way crumbling, only to be saved by the presence of such a relic.
You said:
“Faith in God is something we have without seeing anything. I pray to God for strength to rely on Him alone rather than myself, another person or an object. May we all look inside ourselves and see what we are worshiping. If it’s not God, I pray we would turn from it and realize what the Truth really is.”
Where do you get this idea that we should rely on God “alone.” Of course we need other people ALL THE TIME! To fail to recognize this is folly and selfish and goes against the Gospel, which helps relate to us our connectedness to each other in love. It sounds almost as though you’re worshipping yourself…that you don’t need anything else than God while all those weaker people out there depend on something else. I would pray for you but I guess you don’t need any prayers from anyone else, huh?
July 25th, 2005 at 4:49 pm
Yes, we would round and round! That’s ok. I think you’d have a hard time showing that cessationalism (the believe that miracles stopped with St. Paul) is both biblical and patristic. But here is my last thought:
“Faith is required for a miracle to bear fruit in the life of a person and without this act of faith there is no miracle in the strict sense. The true miracle in the Christian tradition has only one purpose: to extend the Grace of God in creation, and God cannot extend his Grace without the faith on behalf of his creatures. Therefore there can be no miracle without faith.” —Archbishop of Tiberias Alexios
The Orthodox don’t put much stock in miracles as such, you know. We don’t advertise them, sell them on Ebay, or hold rallies in stadiums to make money off them.
We simply believe in a God, the Jesus who is the “same today, yesterday and forever” who continues to work through His material creation that He Himself has redeemed, sanctified, and made a vehicle of his grace.
July 26th, 2005 at 1:09 pm
It is very true that without faith in God, there is no fruit. I, too, believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. It is just that we see scripture differently, which is expected with all the different denominations that are out there.
I also believe that we were made to be in community, but I do not rely on my community to strengthen my faith. People are born sinful and unreliable. God is the One we can truly rely on. I rely on God. God alone. Community is there to encourage, to edify and to support. It is my duty within my community to love those around me, to serve them and to try to point them to the Lord. Nothing is to come before God in my life. While community is a wonderful gift from God, my faith is mine alone. While I seek guidance from a godly mentor and study scripture with a group of women, it all comes back to my relationship with the Lord. If that is failing, then my relationships and my focus will fail as well.
It has never been my intent to be portrayed as someone who worships herself. I need prayer. I am not even close to perfection. I seek the Lord to mold me into the woman He desires. That is a life-long journey and I’m am thankful for His grace, mercy and forgiveness. Without it and without Jesus’ sacrifice, I would be incurring the wrath that I deserve. Praise God for the amazing plans He has set before us.
May I also just state that this blog is “a snippet of my thoughts”. I have yet to meet a single person that agrees entirely with anyone else and I don’t expect people to agree with me on everything. It is interesting to see differing perspectives, but it isn’t necessary to put me down because them. If anything I put in my blog goes against the Word of God, please show me the verse. Other than that, feel free to read my thoughts and make your comments. I’ll be happy to read them.
August 4th, 2005 at 12:31 am
Paul was alive when he and his garments were effective healing others, and it happened not because the Faithful made it up, or so they could worship Paul’s garments, or needed a sign, but because God worked through Paul then, and still does. Why would God permit Paul, or a garment of Paul’s, to be used as an instrument of His healing? Why does He still, when a holy person’s prayers for someone else are answered, or their garment unbidden heals a paraplegic?
As Orthodox Christians we in this life are the Church Militant, and those who have fallen asleep in the Lord are the Church Triumphant, standing before the Throne of God in eternal communion with Him and His Son who exist without the constraints of human-defined “time”. Therefore, those who have passed on are not dead, but alive eternally. They continue to pray as we do, and we join them in worship of God (Rev. 6:8-14) when we pray individually, or corporately as His Church. As you would ask strangers in a prayer tree — whose health in the spirit is unknown to anyone save the Lord — to pray to for you, it is not strange or inappropriate for us to ask those who we KNOW to pray effectively, and fervently, and are righteous before the Lord (James 5:16) to pray for us, because that avails much: we ask those who have kept His commandments, and who He has glorified during or after departing this life to pray with us and for us. We really believe in eternal life: it is part of our lives every day because we do not consider the Church Triumph to either have abandoned us –indeed, they love us with the love of Christ, nor are they out of communion with God.
It is a Western Christian and somewhat Humanist (being a product of the Enlightenment) misconception, that humans, created beings, have identified items connected with those who have lead holy lives as objects of respect or veneration. It is another misconception that that respect is somehow “worship.”
In the East, it is God the Creator who has revealed Himself to us when He glorifies those who lives have been righteous. For example, in the Western, human-centered, scientific world, bones do not ooze fragrant myrrh, yet the bone fragment of St. Anna does that. All things are possible with God: the Creator can. So when God wills myrrh to be produced by a fragment of the Faithful and God-fearing woman who gave birth to His Mother, in whose unsoiled womb he took on the flesh of His creations, what are we His creatures to do? Stick it in a drawer and forget about it, or share the wonder of his glory in a dignified and reverent manner?
It is by His grace that clothes, bones or other “relics” have done and continue to do something inconsistent with man-made physical laws. These wonders of God are seen by man, and His wonders are glorified: quietly and reverently in praise of God, in prayer to God, in hymn of God and in awe of God in the Orthodox Church. The holy person’s holy actions before they fell asleep in the Lord are remembered by the Church because they have finished the race and kept the faith (2Tim 4:7) [that was first delivered to the saints (Greek:”ayios” means “holy” is but is translated as “saints”), Jude3]. It is important for the Church Militant to recognize that God does not glorify the sinful and the fallen, but when someone holy is glorified, it is by God’s action that they are glorified. The glorification of holy people by God is not a necessary element of our individual faith, but it happens. It happens because God wills it, not because we do. Who knows why? –we can only speculate. When it does, it encourages all of us to love the Lord our God, repent, pray, fast, and employ all our effort to live a holy, peaceful and sinless life and to love our neighbor as ourself — seeing Christ in everyone, because; no one but God could act for the glorification of a holy person who in their lifetime lived what He Himself commanded. If you do not know of anyone holy and glorified by God since the text of the New Testament was completed, why don’t you? Holy people have lived, and their lives in Christ recorded for the last two thousand years, and holy people continue to live in Christ and are glorified by God.
The awesome, marvelous acts of God and Jesus are not wholly contained in the New Testament (John 21:25). Neither is God limited to what happened two thousand years ago and is written in the New Testament: God is without limit. And God the Creator of All, without limits is what we see and experience when He glorifies a holy person, such as St Anna, his own grandmother in the flesh.
By the way, the Orthodox Church does not have a system of “rules” for identifying those who are glorified by God. When people are recognized by their community as being holy or God glorifies them, we praise God and remember the individual’s righteousness on the anniversary of their falling asleep in the Lord. (This does not mean only holy people who have been identified as holy are considered holy. Many who have lived holy lives are known but to God.) This practice has enabled us to remember all of the many ways that thousands upon thousands of individuals, regardless of how sinful they were early in their lives, were able to become righteous and holy by repentance, seeing Christ in everyone and treating them accordingly, diligence, prayer, fasting and faith. The Orthodox church has not engaged in the practice of selling relics, nor indulgences. It is important that you do not confuse the history and practices of other Christian denominations with those of the Orthodox Church.
August 4th, 2005 at 12:47 am
Hi,
I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian…
I was reading your post, and i agreed to a lot of it and was happy with many things you wrote Stephanie…
The things i don’t belive in, are miracles stoped at the time of Saint Paul, this is not a biblical teaching… And miracles do happen these days and in Christ’s name, people who glorify GOD and not them selves perform miracles in his name… Miracles are not important anyway, what’s most important is faith and love, the two result from a relationship with Jesus…
I also belive that a miracle will happen to one if he believes with all his heart that he is walking on the sand Jesus walked on even if it wasn’t.
Hence the saints can perform miracles, not through their power, but through Christ’s and his alone and no one else.
People should worship no one but Christ…
These are all my churche’s beliefs…
August 8th, 2005 at 10:46 pm
To clarify something regarding reliance on God alone…I rely on God alone, but am intertwined with community. I was made for community, but God is to come first.
August 9th, 2005 at 9:23 am
Hi:
I am a personal friend of Stephanie’s and have just read her web page with this blog thing (I don’t quite know what that is…I am middle aged) and have been fascinated by all of the comments that have been left with her. You, of course, have no way to know Stephanie’s heart but I have had that honor and I just wanted to give you a glimpse (in case you missed it in her blog).
Stephanie truly seeks after truth and strives to serve God in her personal life as well as on the job through her speech and actions. She doesn’t do it perfectly but she does have a heart that wants to.
If you all had read her entire “blog” then you would have read the beginning where Stephanie tells of her struggles and her reliance of God to overcome. Her humility was what stood out to me and a I read it I was encouraged by the raw truth that was shared with absolute strangers. As I read the comments listed by visitors to her site I was shocked that so far no one else picked up on the struggles and would be an encouragement instead of making sure that opinions were heard loudly and clearly.
I want truth to be spoken (written) and for Christ to be shown forth clearly to all but in order to do this there must be a large measure of grace and mercy to be shown. Most of Jesus scathing words were reserved for those who thought that they knew a lot and wanted to sound like it but forgot the one thing that Jesus lived every single day of His life. Love.
When you see someone struggling with something, before you argue a point please take a little time to look into that heart and see what is going on and be an encouragement. I think that that above anything else would glorify Christ and speak truth more clearly and simply than anything else I have read on this site. The comments were all well put…to the point that I was very intimidated and really didn’t want to write anything for fear that I would be thought a simpleton.
I have confidence that each of you is on his/her journey to and with Christ…..as is Stephanie and yours truly. We won’t say things perfectly and our hearts cannot be known perfectly by each other but God is able to discern each of our thoughts and actions and hold each of us accountable for them. I pray that your thoughts and actions as well as mine and Stephanies can be found as a sweet fragrance that gives honor and praise to our Lord.
Your Sister In Christ
Liz
August 10th, 2005 at 8:11 am
“Stephanie truly seeks after truth and strives to serve God in her personal life as well as on the job through her speech and actions.”
No one has disputed that in any way.
“I was very intimidated and really didn’t want to write anything…”
I’m glad you did write something! But healthy, robust and deep discussions aren’t bad either. Those who have the tools to participate should, and those that can’t can simply follow along as best they can. No problem there.